Which Came First? Physics or Mathematics?
Published November 23rd, 2006 in 5M1, 6AH, HigherHopefully this is a solution to the debate that has started on the Higher Prelim Revision Sheet 3 post. Please feel free to air your views. Unfortunately it started with an anonymous blogger ‘X’. I have my own views on anonymous blogging but I’ll keep them for another time. I would like to start the debate off with a link to a nice website to get everyone thinking. Here we go:
http://www.valdosta.edu/~cbarnbau/phys_math/p1.html
I hope you enjoy this. 
I maintain that it is interest in understanding our environment that went on to create a method in which to do so, so physics reasons for the basis of maths, which is more important the reason or the mechanics?
I maintain that it is the interest in understanding our environment that went on to create a method/system to do so, so physics reasons for the basis of maths. Which is more important the reason or the mechanics?
The method was always there. We discovered it after thinking about the environment. Maths first, Physics second.
To answer the question in a different way, mainly because my head is too full of the prelim homeworks, Maths came first because modern physics wasn’t established until the mid 19th century when physics and philosophy were formally separated. Also the first serious mathematician i could find on record was Baudhayana who lived in India in 800BC and was the first person to write down anything resembling
Thats right 250 years before Pythagoras!
If all mathamaticians were philosophers, Mr Stebbing might have hair.
Thank you Sam for being adult about things. I’m glad you are safely in the mathematics camp now. Obviously Fionnlaoch Donnachaidh has a little less maturity. I do not feel that personal attacks on anyone are acceptable. I will remove any subsequent childish attacks from this blog as we must remember it is an educational blog, designed for learning to happen collaboratively. Unfortunately if Fionnlaoch Donnachaidh or any of his/her pseudonyms keep posting comments like this, I will have to change the way this blog runs. The changes would namely be a login for everyone who wishes to post a comment. I would find this rather destructive and probably would lead to Stebblog disappearing due to how difficult it would be to access. It would certainly stop outsiders benefiting from what Stebblog has to offer. Please offer your own opinions on this matter. I would like to know other peoples views on what I’ve said. I’m now off to check some ip addresses.
Mmm. I’m very surprised
By the way I think you spelt mathEmaticians wrongly Fionnlaoch Donnachaidh 
It is not certain when mathematics was first discovered (for want of a better word)
however there is a quotation which i find may give mr stebbing the upper hand in this feud
Mathematics, rightly viewed, possesses not only truth, but supreme beauty — a beauty cold and austere, like that of sculpture, without appeal to any part of our weaker nature, without the gorgeous trappings of painting or music, yet sublimely pure, and capable of a stern perfection such as only the greatest art can show.
—Bertrand Russell, The Study of Mathematics
Its quite a nice quote about maths but not the words i would have chosen to describe mathematics.
P.S Mr langlands says that when you grow up you may appreciate physics more.
I hate this new update fo internet explorer, i need to get firefox.
Those of you who think that mathematics exists merely as some kind of tool of science, or that it’s validity relies on the concrete universe around us, have simply not yet realised how deep the rabbit hole goes!
Physics is a beautiful, magnificent, inspiring body of knowledge, but maths is about so much more than the physical world. A small subset of mathematics is used by physicists. The way it usually goes is that pure mathematicians research some new field, simply for the joy and beauty of it, then a few decades later physicists realise that they can use this piece of maths to improve their models of the real world - Complex Numbers, Group Theory, Riemannian Geometry etc etc. A less charitable mathematician than I might say that physicists feed off the scraps we leave behind
Woo! go Mr Jones, I have to say Im in the maths camp too just, rather simply, because it makes sense in my head that way!
I’m glad that I’ve encouraged you all to start looking at the bigger picture. It’s interesting how the physicists (or physicysts) have gone a little quiet. If you’ve not already done so, you may wish to read the articles in the link on this post. It expands a little on what Mr jones offered.
What of the Chinese in over 3500 B.C. using astronomy and thus physics to create functioning calendars, and timepieces, not to mention observations and calculations based on astral movement? Incidentally for me I just enjoy indulging in a little sophistry regardless of the outcome.
Got another one about physics and maths enjoy:
Ordinary language is totally unsuited for expressing what physics really asserts, since the words of everyday life are not sufficiently abstract. Only mathematics and mathematical logic can say as little as the physicist means to say.
-The Scientific Outlook, 1931
Im still on the fence by the way.
does latex work yet?
Here here Callum. I’m glad we’re thinking and researching deeply on the matter. This Physicists have all but vanished I’ve noticed. Oh well. LaTEX hasn’t been plugged in yet (so to speak) I’ll let you all know when it gets sorted.
I have to say it seems a bit biased towards the maths camp here.
Though as far as the question goes what came first.
I would say maths as it is funadmanetal but there is no point in maths without purpose. Of which in this universe is physics as that is what we can interact with in real life. Maths is like a language they have always existed but nothing ever used them until there was a reason to. That reason in the case of maths being physics.
Anyway back to some last minute prelim revision
Or Physics being maths?
i think i’ll sit on the fence for this one. On the one hand it is true that maths is the language of physics. But at the same time, maths gets more complicated and complex just for the fun of it almost. So in conclusion i would say physics and maths are fun
i’d like to say physics came first. i havent researched it or anything but surely physics is the laws of the universe and all that jazz and maths is derived from it…?
yay another fencer
In response to Girv :
i think the blog is playing up it didnt post all of my last message
anyway its very hard to define the difference betwwen some of maths and physics e.g:
the velocity/displacement/time e.c.t formulas.
Girv. How could you? Listen to Callum.
its okay, i like maths better than physics, i just think that physics is the fundamental laws that the universe exists on and maths is part of that….god i sound like a geek =]
No, No, No we don’t need the word physics. It’s just maths. Maths is all encompassing.
I think that this debate is getting a little to personal, anyway here is a physics quote for a change:
“Physics isn’t a religion. If it were, we’d have a much easier time raising money.”
Leon Lederman quotes
okay so its not related at all but its still good right?
Maths, of course!!! Is maths not the whole point of living?
Yes yes yes. Or should it be woof woof woolley woof
Yeah, it could be. Though maybe we could combine the two:
The Saviour of the Woofing Woolley!
Maths is a language, which scientists (in this case physics use). Now I understand that Mathematicians like to sit at home and make up new maths that seems like it has no real use like complex numbers. But then fifty years later there being used in new physics to explain stuff. Look at the English Language. Words like “NEDS” are in the Oxford English dictionary so they can be used in Countdown, or in English essays. They were started by a few people and now common place in society.
This is just like what happens in the relationship between physics and Maths. Therefore Maths came second Physics came first.
This explanation most likely has come out really badly, so if anyone doesn’t understand what i meant then tough, i’m tired